1 Topic by Gothic

  • Gothic
  • Fireborn Groupie
  • Offline
  • From: California
  • Registered: September 22nd, 2003
  • Posts: 498

Topic: Freedom?

Do you people honestly and truely think that we in America are free citizens? Do you believe we actually hold indepedence with the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness? We may have more rights than other nations, but no we are not free, so this Sunday when you are out blowing up fireworks for Independence Day sit back and think about how free you really are, or anybody on this planet for that matter.

"We are a mass of seething fury, elected as your judge and jury. You stand accused of murder, vanity, and evil crimes against humanity."-Andy Martin

Gothic's Website

2 Reply by PrairieDawg

  • PrairieDawg
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Regina, Saskatchewan
  • Registered: June 15th, 2003
  • Posts: 543

Re: Freedom?

Happy fucking Canada Day to you my friend!

Theology: The study of elaborate verbal disguises for non-ideas

3 Reply by Gothic

  • Gothic
  • Fireborn Groupie
  • Offline
  • From: California
  • Registered: September 22nd, 2003
  • Posts: 498

Re: Freedom?

Cheers!

"We are a mass of seething fury, elected as your judge and jury. You stand accused of murder, vanity, and evil crimes against humanity."-Andy Martin

Gothic's Website

4 Reply by PrairieDawg

  • PrairieDawg
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Regina, Saskatchewan
  • Registered: June 15th, 2003
  • Posts: 543

Re: Freedom?

Sadly, my <ahem> "friend" that was to take me drinking today stood me up - fucking jerk!  So I'm sober and broke on my paid holiday - well, at least I get paid tomorrow in time for the weekend!!

Theology: The study of elaborate verbal disguises for non-ideas

5 Reply by Fireborn

  • Fireborn
  • Godly Moderator
  • Offline
  • From: Ohio
  • Registered: June 16th, 2003
  • Posts: 2,066

Re: Freedom?

I feel Free. So Gothic don't give me shit on how we are not free. there are limitations on freedom. Our Freedom should NEVER interfere with the freedoms of other people.

I don't question my sexuality, my sexuality questions me.
Self Gratification is God's greatest gift to man.

6 Reply by brimstone1392

  • brimstone1392
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Chi-town, Biznatch!
  • Registered: February 26th, 2004
  • Posts: 318

Re: Freedom?

Do you people honestly and truely think that we in America are free citizens? Do you believe we actually hold indepedence with the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness? We may have more rights than other nations, but no we are not free, so this Sunday when you are out blowing up fireworks for Independence Day sit back and think about how free you really are, or anybody on this planet for that matter.

The way I see it, no, we are not really free.  Though FB has a point about freedom not infringing on the freedom of others, that's not why we aren't free.  True freedom should come without consequences enforced by others.

However, Gothic, I still think you're a little cranky hippie with too much time on his hands who has to complain about everything instead of actually doing something about it.

Have a nice Independence Day! big_smile

7 Reply by mold

  • mold
  • Ancient
  • Offline
  • From: WA
  • Registered: August 17th, 2003
  • Posts: 1,118

Re: Freedom?

I feel Free. So Gothic don't give me shit on how we are not free. there are limitations on freedom. Our Freedom should NEVER interfere with the freedoms of other people.

I don't feel free. In a free nation the Person that the most people voted for would sit in the Oval Office. In a free nation, I wouldn't have to worry about the FBI knocking on my door because I mention 9/11. In a free nation I wouldn't event think about the possibility of my Government spying on me, tapping my phone, my internet etc. In a free nation I could smoke weed on thr streets, instead of in my bedroom. In a free nation, curfue (spelling?) wouldn't exist. In a free nation I wouldn't have to worry about getting a ticket for not wearing my seatbelt. In a free nation I could draw anti-Bush pictures without teacher calling parents.

There are neccesary restrictions. Many of those placed upon us are far from that. We are not free. We used to be much closer to that ideal.

mold's Website

8 Reply by brimstone1392

  • brimstone1392
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Chi-town, Biznatch!
  • Registered: February 26th, 2004
  • Posts: 318

Re: Freedom?

We are not free. We used to be much closer to that ideal.

Really?  When?  When have we ever even been remotely close to real freedom?

9 Reply by mold

  • mold
  • Ancient
  • Offline
  • From: WA
  • Registered: August 17th, 2003
  • Posts: 1,118

Re: Freedom?

I said we used to be closer, not close. We moved farther away from freedom the day the Senate passed the unpatriotic "Patriot Act".

mold's Website

10 Reply by brimstone1392

  • brimstone1392
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Chi-town, Biznatch!
  • Registered: February 26th, 2004
  • Posts: 318

Re: Freedom?

Ah.  Sorry I misread that.  Now that it's been cleared up, I'll say this:

In a free nation the Person that the most people voted for would sit in the Oval Office.

Not with the electoral college.  (The only good to ever come out of it was keeping Gore out of office.)

I wouldn't have to worry about the FBI knocking on my door because I mention 9/11.

If you worry about this, you're paranoid.  They have better things to do than invade the home of a hippie. wink

I wouldn't event think about the possibility of my Government spying on me, tapping my phone, my internet etc.

The only reason anyone would really have to worry about this is if they are doing something very wrong.  Are you?

I could smoke weed on thr streets, instead of in my bedroom. In a free nation, curfue (spelling?) wouldn't exist. In a free nation I wouldn't have to worry about getting a ticket for not wearing my seatbelt.

All good points.  I have absolutely no sarcastic comment to make here.  Oh, and it's curfew.

In a free nation I could draw anti-Bush pictures without teacher calling parents.

I see your point, in part.  However, after a certain age no one can force you to go to school.  It's your choice whether or not to be there.  Anything that happens to you while there is a direct result of that decision.  If you don't like it, excercise the freedom you do have and walk out.

11 Reply by mold

  • mold
  • Ancient
  • Offline
  • From: WA
  • Registered: August 17th, 2003
  • Posts: 1,118

Re: Freedom?

Not with the electoral college. (The only good to ever come out of it was keeping Gore out of office.)

Yes I know "Not with the Electorial College". That's what I'm saying - a "free" nation wouldn't have such a thing.

If you worry about this, you're paranoid. They have better things to do than invade the home of a hippie.

Yeah you think so wouldn't you? But recent-history has already proven otherwise.

Also, it's the whole principle as much as anything. The fact that they can do that, perfectly within the law, bug us, invade us, steal our civil rights legally right out from under our feet without a word, is an extremely dangerous, and scary thing.

The only reason anyone would really have to worry about this is if they are doing something very wrong. Are you?

But that isn't true. Who knows how many innocent people have been bugged? No one, because they can legally keep that information a secret. But I'm damn sure it's happened, the FBI has openly hassled people that were innocent. And no, I have nothing to hide, that why it rattles me so much.

All good points. I have absolutely no sarcastic comment to make here. Oh, and it's curfew.

That's a shocker, lol. And thanks.

I see your point, in part. However, after a certain age no one can force you to go to school. It's your choice whether or not to be there. Anything that happens to you while there is a direct result of that decision. If you don't like it, excercise the freedom you do have and walk out.

I was reffering to an incident that happened to, I believe, a Middle-schooler, in my great state of Washington. He drew a picture of Bush depicted as Satan, something like that. However, his parents weren't just called, but the police got involved, and the FBI was notified and persued it by paying the poor sap a visit. It was a big story in our papers for a couple days. As one man, in the editorial section put it "When our government is afraid of 12 year olds, we are in big trouble". Yes, Mr. Yes we are.

mold's Website

12 Reply by PrairieDawg

  • PrairieDawg
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Regina, Saskatchewan
  • Registered: June 15th, 2003
  • Posts: 543

Re: Freedom?

You two are so C U T E  when you argue...makes me all warm & fuzzy inside  big_smile

Theology: The study of elaborate verbal disguises for non-ideas

13 Reply by Gothic

  • Gothic
  • Fireborn Groupie
  • Offline
  • From: California
  • Registered: September 22nd, 2003
  • Posts: 498

Re: Freedom?

I feel Free. So Gothic don't give me shit on how we are not free. there are limitations on freedom. Our Freedom should NEVER interfere with the freedoms of other people.

Limitations on freedom? You know thats an oxymoron right? A contradiction. There should be no limitations, but yes I agree our rights shouldnt be able to trample the freedoms of others, but those aren't the freedoms I am talking about. I'm talking about tax laws (unjust and unfair, I mean who am I hurting by not paying taxes. And DONT go into some bullshit about how its all used for schools, roads, and other helpful organizations because I guarentee that not even half goes into those but into stupid side projects.)

The way I see it, no, we are not really free. Though FB has a point about freedom not infringing on the freedom of others, that's not why we aren't free. True freedom should come without consequences enforced by others.

However, Gothic, I still think you're a little cranky hippie with too much time on his hands who has to complain about everything instead of actually doing something about it.

Have a nice Independence Day!

Not doing anything about it? This wasn't even supposed to be a debate topic I just wanted people(other than you 2) to state how they felt on their supposed freedoms. But I goto protests, I state what I feel should be done to my congressman or house of rep, I just mailed out a letter a couple weeks ago in fact, but do I ever get a reply? No. However I do know a way around it all. Sign a few documents here that will take you our from under the UCC1 and you will have a lot more freedom that everybody else doesnt, however after that the gov't is only looking for ways to throw you in jail so youd have to watch your ass pretty close. I know this cause I know the person who did it also spent a number of years in jail for simply wording something the wrong way.

"We are a mass of seething fury, elected as your judge and jury. You stand accused of murder, vanity, and evil crimes against humanity."-Andy Martin

Gothic's Website

14 Reply by Fireborn

  • Fireborn
  • Godly Moderator
  • Offline
  • From: Ohio
  • Registered: June 16th, 2003
  • Posts: 2,066

Re: Freedom?

Just because the liberal Scum of America doesnt think we are free doesn't mean we aren't free. I am going to say it again, their should be limitations on Freedoms. I guess if it were up to you Liberal Scum I should be able to shoot someone and not get in trouble for it since I am free to do what I want.

In the case that you have mentioned only the strong would survive. In you "free" nation the strong would get to do what ever the hell they wanted, which would no doubt infringe on our own freedoms. Then guess what, I bet it wouldn't be much time until you're under a dictator rule. Then just because a few hippie Liberal scum wanted full freedom you screwed it for the rest of us.

Moral of the story is to be happy with what you have you fucking liberals. It is probably fine by most of the world if you go up into the mountains and do what ever the fuck you want and leave the people who want realistic freedoms alone.

I don't question my sexuality, my sexuality questions me.
Self Gratification is God's greatest gift to man.

15 Reply by mold

  • mold
  • Ancient
  • Offline
  • From: WA
  • Registered: August 17th, 2003
  • Posts: 1,118

Re: Freedom?

You two are so C U T E  when you argue...makes me all warm & fuzzy inside  big_smile

Actually I think this one would be more classified as a discussion, because we are agreeing on some things.

mold's Website

16 Reply by mold

  • mold
  • Ancient
  • Offline
  • From: WA
  • Registered: August 17th, 2003
  • Posts: 1,118

Re: Freedom?

Fireborn, drop the whole "liberal hippie scum" bullshit. I mean, give me a fucking break. We aren't a free nation, quit pretending we are. I don't give two shits if you think this government is run absolutely perfectly, but cut the crap about us being that free. There are other countries with much less, to coin a phrase "limitation on freedom".

I belive that we need laws. I understand that certain restrictions are clearly needed. However, I'll say it again, many of those placed upon us are not needed. I pointed out a few in my first post.

mold's Website

17 Reply by brimstone1392

  • brimstone1392
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Chi-town, Biznatch!
  • Registered: February 26th, 2004
  • Posts: 318

Re: Freedom?

Also, it's the whole principle as much as anything. The fact that they can do that, perfectly within the law, bug us, invade us, steal our civil rights legally right out from under our feet without a word, is an extremely dangerous, and scary thing.

If it's the principle, that I can agree with.  But, hey, I just plain don't like the government.

But that isn't true. Who knows how many innocent people have been bugged? No one, because they can legally keep that information a secret. But I'm damn sure it's happened, the FBI has openly hassled people that were innocent. And no, I have nothing to hide, that why it rattles me so much.

Yes, but unless your using your phone to plan a terrorist attack, market massive quantities of drugs, or plan to kill a high ranking official, you don't have to worry about it.  It's not like they listen to every single conversation.  There aren't enough people in the FBI to do that.

I was reffering to an incident that happened to, I believe, a Middle-schooler, in my great state of Washington. He drew a picture of Bush depicted as Satan, something like that. However, his parents weren't just called, but the police got involved, and the FBI was notified and persued it by paying the poor sap a visit. It was a big story in our papers for a couple days. As one man, in the editorial section put it "When our government is afraid of 12 year olds, we are in big trouble". Yes, Mr. Yes we are.

Ooooh.  I thought you meant it happened to you.  Well, we've never given young people any rights, even those from the bill 'o' rights.  Just look at the rules you have to follow in school during the period of your life when the government makes you go.  The supreme court even said that students in school don't have the same rights.

You two are so C U T E when you argue...makes me all warm & fuzzy inside

All the cuteness is coming from mold's side.  My side is just plain sexy. wink

Not doing anything about it? This wasn't even supposed to be a debate topic I just wanted people(other than you 2) to state how they felt on their supposed freedoms. But I goto protests, I state what I feel should be done to my congressman or house of rep, I just mailed out a letter a couple weeks ago in fact, but do I ever get a reply? No. However I do know a way around it all. Sign a few documents here that will take you our from under the UCC1 and you will have a lot more freedom that everybody else, however after that the gov't is only looking for ways to throw you in jail so youd have to watch your ass pretty close. I know this cause I know the person who did it also spent a number of years in jail for simply wording something the wrong way.

Umm... Goth, that was a joke.  I was just trying to get you all worked up. big_smile

18 Reply by mold

  • mold
  • Ancient
  • Offline
  • From: WA
  • Registered: August 17th, 2003
  • Posts: 1,118

Re: Freedom?

Yes, but unless your using your phone to plan a terrorist attack, market massive quantities of drugs, or plan to kill a high ranking official, you don't have to worry about it. It's not like they listen to every single conversation. There aren't enough people in the FBI to do that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know all that. Like I'm saying, it's just the fact that they can do that, perfectly legally, and I'll never know, pisses me off to no end.

Ooooh. I thought you meant it happened to you. Well, we've never given young people any rights, even those from the bill 'o' rights. Just look at the rules you have to follow in school during the period of your life when the government makes you go. The supreme court even said that students in school don't have the same rights.

LMAO Brim, I know! Do you remember what we're talking about? I know what the Supreme Court says about it, we aren't free! The kid either had rights, and they were legally violated. OR he had none, which would make him for from a free person- even over the basics.

mold's Website

19 Reply by Fireborn

  • Fireborn
  • Godly Moderator
  • Offline
  • From: Ohio
  • Registered: June 16th, 2003
  • Posts: 2,066

Re: Freedom?

Its not my fault people are to dumb to understand how good they really have it.

I don't question my sexuality, my sexuality questions me.
Self Gratification is God's greatest gift to man.

20 Reply by brimstone1392

  • brimstone1392
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Chi-town, Biznatch!
  • Registered: February 26th, 2004
  • Posts: 318

Re: Freedom?

FB, there's a little analogy I like to use in situations like this:

Take an average piece of dog shit.  Now, spray it with perfume until it actually starts to smell good.  Then, dip it in lucite, so it will be permanently hard.  Then, take a cloth and get it nice and shiny.  And, what the hell, throw some diamonds on it for good measure.  Now, without a doubt, you have the best damn piece of dog shit in the world.  But isn't it still just a piece of shit?

What I'm saying is the best of a crappy thing is still a crappy thing.  We may have more freedom than others in the world, but we are far from being truely free.

21 Reply by Gothic

  • Gothic
  • Fireborn Groupie
  • Offline
  • From: California
  • Registered: September 22nd, 2003
  • Posts: 498

Re: Freedom?

But that isn't true. Who knows how many innocent people have been bugged? No one, because they can legally keep that information a secret. But I'm damn sure it's happened, the FBI has openly hassled people that were innocent. And no, I have nothing to hide, that why it rattles me so much.

Funny you should say that, I recently took an electro magnetic scanner and ran it through my house just to find out for sure ya know? It went off in 3 places: the main LAN telephone line, the wall near the front door, and the wall in my living room. Now my family DOES have the history of tax evasion and problems with the IRS but still I recieved no warning about this.

P.S. After finding that in my LAN line I immediately disconnected it and stopped my service,  now I only use my trusty cell phone which never leaves my side.

"We are a mass of seething fury, elected as your judge and jury. You stand accused of murder, vanity, and evil crimes against humanity."-Andy Martin

Gothic's Website

22 Reply by brimstone1392

  • brimstone1392
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Chi-town, Biznatch!
  • Registered: February 26th, 2004
  • Posts: 318

Re: Freedom?

Goth, what kind of EM scanner are you using?  If you bought it from a scientific supply, then I'd believe you.  But, those ones cost several thousand dollars, so I doubt that.  If you got it from one of those "spy" shops, then you should know it doesn't really work.  It's just a novelty.

23 Reply by Fireborn

  • Fireborn
  • Godly Moderator
  • Offline
  • From: Ohio
  • Registered: June 16th, 2003
  • Posts: 2,066

Re: Freedom?

I never said we were truly Free. No one should be totally free.

I don't question my sexuality, my sexuality questions me.
Self Gratification is God's greatest gift to man.

24 Reply by brimstone1392

  • brimstone1392
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Chi-town, Biznatch!
  • Registered: February 26th, 2004
  • Posts: 318

Re: Freedom?

I know, FB.  What I was saying is even though we have some freedoms, I think we SHOULD have complete freedom.  Like I said in the chat before it froze on me, I see freedom as being free from government enforced consequences.

25 Reply by mold

  • mold
  • Ancient
  • Offline
  • From: WA
  • Registered: August 17th, 2003
  • Posts: 1,118

Re: Freedom?

I never said we were truly Free. No one should be totally free.

Yes, we aren't "truly free". But you think that is fine. Whch I why I previously posted . . .

We aren't a free nation, quit pretending we are. I don't give two shits if you think this government is run absolutely perfectly, but cut the crap about us being that free. There are other countries with much less, to coin a phrase "limitation on freedom".

So why post

Its not my fault people are to dumb to understand how good they really have it.

?

That doesn't really seem to ahve anything to do with this. But Okay.

Apparently we agree. You aknowledge we are not truly free. End of story. That is what this was about. Where we disagree is I believe we need more freedom, as does Brim, and Gothic. You on the other hand, are happy as it is.

mold's Website