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Re: American hatred

Just to add a couple comments here:

One of the biggest problems is that the world sees us as a bully because we're bigger and stronger than they are and we use our strength when we need to.  This is to be expected and I really don't blame them for it.  But one thing to remember is that a bully doesn't stick around to defend the people he beats up.  Just a thought. big_smile

And second... big_smile HEY MOLD!:

As for your earlier question about the middle east, I consider them part of the global community, but not the immediate family.  Actually, in terms of countries again and not individual people, most of them are bullies.  They talk a big game and go after people who they don't think will fight back.  Hey, they keep picking on the little jewish girl with the big nose (Israel).  That's just not right.  Hey, girls with big noses give great... :shock:

I'm gonna leave that there.

And as for our involvement with them, well, it's up to the strong to protect the weak.  I think we've all forgotten that one.

I've missed this...really I have. It almost brings a tear to my eye.  :cry:
I am going to love tearing this argument apart, like always.  big_smile

We don't use our power when we "need" to. We abuse our power when we feel it is in the best interests of our people, erm wait...make that corporate sponsors. We, in no way, needed to invade Iraq. Argue that all you want, but there was NO imminent threat from them. Actually, I'd go so far as to say, we didn't "need" to stick our noses into any of the other countries affairs during the last half century.

Also, since when is Israel not a bully? Wow, you know I'd definetely consider an occupying force launching missles into civilian neighborhoods a bully. Actually, I'd consider that terrorism. Israel is NOT a little Jewish girl. Israel is a big fucking military force armed to the teeth with American nuclear warheads.

I am all tingly inside. Nostalgia claims the mind...

"We are a mass of seething fury, elected as your judge and jury. You stand accused of murder, vanity, and evil crimes against humanity."-Andy Martin

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Re: American hatred

I'm almost drooling...  (Hey buddy!  wink  )

If I knew you'd respond to that, I would have replied for you:
"Blah, blah, corporations bad, blah, blah, they run america, blah, blah, do you remember those push-up popsicles things that were just cylindrical bags of ice with koolaid in them, blah blah.

Alright, so I added that last one for myself.  Seriously, do they still make those?

We abuse our power when we feel it is in the best interests of our people

NO! Bad Gothic... We do that outside! big_smile
Ignore all the things Bush said (if you are capable of it).  Ignore the terrorism and WMD's.  Saddam is a madman.  We put Saddam, that mass-murdering SOB in power.  No matter what the reasons given by one politician and accepted by ALL the rest, we needed to fix the problem we helped to create in the first place.  As I said, it is up to the strong to protect the weak.  If you can come up with an arguement against that, I'd love to hear it.

Once again, don't give examples of what politicians said.  If the worlds political leaders truly represented the whole of mankind, then we should just NUKE the planet and hope the roaches and mutated-twinkies can do better!

Israel is NOT a little Jewish girl.

Sorry.  I should have said "the little Jewish girl with a BLACKBELT!"
Think of it this way:  5,000 years ago, the jews were slaves.  Did they fight back?  NO!  They left for the desert.  Something any of us today would consider INSANE.  Fast forward a lot now... The holocaust.  Hitler tried to erraticate them.  Did they fight back?  Once again, NO.  They sat back and waited for the genocide.  NOW, however, they not only have a country again, but an army; an elite fighting force second only to our own.   Not only that, but they USE IT!  That's right.  After five thousand years (minus a few short, minority-driven wars here and there) the Jews, as a whole, are fighting back.

So, what's the question of the day?

What the HELL did the Muslims do to piss them off to this point?  It's not like they haven't faced beeing run out of their homes, driven into the ocean, or complete genocide before.  If anyone from the Muslim community could explain that to me, I MIGHT be willing to reconsider my position on this.

Three final points for you, Keebs:
1.  Bring it on!  (I love chearleader movies! wink )
2.  God bless the shift key!
3.  I really.. REALLY missed this.  It's hard to get a good political debate going when you're tending bar!

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Re: American hatred

What the HELL did the Muslims do to piss them off to this point?

I'm not a muslim but it seems like they tried to fight for land, now I must add this is there land to begin with the allies gave the jews the land, which did not belong to us in the first place.

It be kinda like if russia gave part of america to muslims to create a islamic state. Would america just go "oh they got given that land we better just leave them there in peace".

Also did it ever occur to you that since the israily's consider the palastinians part of israil therefore it seems they are just killing muslims in there own state, smells like genocide?

personally, knowing the military and economic might of the American nation in its current state, and knowing the capacity it can reach, I really do not think that Europe has any business telling us where to stick our noses, especially since they are all a bunch of sissies, and gave away Poland, for gods sake.

You are a fool. That is all that post requires as it is completely wrong and lacks any commong sense or inteligence.

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Re: American hatred

I'm almost drooling...  (Hey buddy!  wink  )

If I knew you'd respond to that, I would have replied for you:
"Blah, blah, corporations bad, blah, blah, they run america, blah, blah, do you remember those push-up popsicles things that were just cylindrical bags of ice with koolaid in them, blah blah.

Alright, so I added that last one for myself.  Seriously, do they still make those?

We abuse our power when we feel it is in the best interests of our people

NO! Bad Gothic... We do that outside! big_smile
Ignore all the things Bush said (if you are capable of it).  Ignore the terrorism and WMD's.  Saddam is a madman.  We put Saddam, that mass-murdering SOB in power.  No matter what the reasons given by one politician and accepted by ALL the rest, we needed to fix the problem we helped to create in the first place.  As I said, it is up to the strong to protect the weak.  If you can come up with an arguement against that, I'd love to hear it.

Once again, don't give examples of what politicians said.  If the worlds political leaders truly represented the whole of mankind, then we should just NUKE the planet and hope the roaches and mutated-twinkies can do better!

Israel is NOT a little Jewish girl.

Sorry.  I should have said "the little Jewish girl with a BLACKBELT!"
Think of it this way:  5,000 years ago, the jews were slaves.  Did they fight back?  NO!  They left for the desert.  Something any of us today would consider INSANE.  Fast forward a lot now... The holocaust.  Hitler tried to erraticate them.  Did they fight back?  Once again, NO.  They sat back and waited for the genocide.  NOW, however, they not only have a country again, but an army; an elite fighting force second only to our own.   Not only that, but they USE IT!  That's right.  After five thousand years (minus a few short, minority-driven wars here and there) the Jews, as a whole, are fighting back.

So, what's the question of the day?

What the HELL did the Muslims do to piss them off to this point?  It's not like they haven't faced beeing run out of their homes, driven into the ocean, or complete genocide before.  If anyone from the Muslim community could explain that to me, I MIGHT be willing to reconsider my position on this.

Three final points for you, Keebs:
1.  Bring it on!  (I love chearleader movies! wink )
2.  God bless the shift key!
3.  I really.. REALLY missed this.  It's hard to get a good political debate going when you're tending bar!

Is this is what you call helping the Iraqi people? More men, women, and children are dying everyday than 6 years ago. MSNBC officially delcared Iraq in a state of Civil War (yesterday I believe). The whole argument of us standing up for the Iraqi people and liberating them is flawed. You cannot invade a country, proudly prnouncing freedom and liberty, and then decide to stick around to "help" with the governing process for the next 4 years. Oh and you can't use the excuse that we are doing it for the people anymore. They no longer want us there. The majority want us to leave.

http://www.publicpolicy.umd.edu/news/PIPA.htm

As for Israel....aww Israel...
The jewish people have been through a lot...yes, I will give you that. They have pretty much been the butt of every widely known injustice in the past few millenia. However, that has very little to do with the Jewish people of Israel.
First Israel should never have existed. I'm not saying the people should never have existed,  the borders and state of Israel has no right to exist today. The western powers after WWII stole land from the Palastinians, and gave it to the Jewish people. As fucked up as what happened in WWII was, you don't displace an entire population, and give one religions holy land to another religion. Thats what has created all this strife in the first place.
I wouldn't exactly call Israel's tactics "fighting back". When you aim missles and mortars into towns full of innocent civilians and children in the hopes of killing or driving out a few hezbollah terrorist cell members, youa re not just "fighting back". You are enacting terrorism. It would be as if we had just decided to bomb all of baghdad to get the terrorists out, there is no difference.

"We are a mass of seething fury, elected as your judge and jury. You stand accused of murder, vanity, and evil crimes against humanity."-Andy Martin

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Re: American hatred

Meh, Gothic put the Isreal thing much better than I...

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Re: American hatred

Is this is what you call helping the Iraqi people? More men, women, and children are dying everyday than 6 years ago.

I think you missed the point I was making about taking out Saddam.  Though any 100% hard figures may prove to be impossible to calculate, current estimates on how many deaths should be attributed to him range between 300,000 and 1.5 million.

One and a half million men, women and children.  I hope you get the point I was making now.

MSNBC officially delcared Iraq in a state of Civil War

Since when does a news organization have the power or authority to declare a civil war?  And you have problems with our goverment having too much power! wink Look, we went in to stop a madman, we stay in to prevent another from taking power.  If we don't, then we'll just end up having to go BACK later on to stop the next guy who commits Stalin-like crimes against humanity.

As far as the Allies taking Palastinian land after WWII, remember that the Palestine, as well as many other middle-eastern countries, allied themselves with Hitler and the Nazis due to their mutual hatred of Jews (mind you, prior to the formation of Israel).  They lost.  We took the land.  That's what they call "the spoils of war."  It may not be the best thing, but it happens after every major war.

Also, you have to understand that though we consider hezbollah a terrorist organization, they are in fact the Palestinian military.  And as a military tactic, they launch rockets into Israel FROM civilian cites.  Irael isn't trying to hit hezbollah, but rather the rocket sites from which they are attacking.  This is not an act of terrorism, but an act of war.  Of course, this is pointless in the long run, since they'll just get more rockets/launchers from syria and others.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Israel isn't just sitting on Muslim holy land, but Jewish and Christian holy land as well.  Also, you're probably not aware of the fact that anything within about 10 miles of a mosque (if I'm spelling that correctly) is considered holy land by Muslims.  There is, by that logic, quite a lot of Muslim holy land here in America.  Should we give that "back" to them as well?

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Re: American hatred

I think you missed the point I was making about taking out Saddam.  Though any 100% hard figures may prove to be impossible to calculate, current estimates on how many deaths should be attributed to him range between 300,000 and 1.5 million.

One and a half million men, women and children.  I hope you get the point I was making now.

I believe you are mistaken, Brimmy-poo. After doing an hours worth of extensive research I could find nothing to back up what you are saying with this claim. However, I did find something similar...

http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0401c.asp

It seems that it was not Saddam who had killed 300,000 - 1,500,000 people, but rather U.N. Sanctions against him, oh wait let me rephrase that, U.N. sanctions against his people.

Saddam did kill people, but those deaths were more along the line of 100 here, 200 there, with one sticking out at around 5,000. Nothing comes near the 100,000 mark though. Sorry Brimmy but all information I have looked shows that our war has caused more citizen death than Saddam ever intentionally caused.

Since when does a news organization have the power or authority to declare a civil war? And you have problems with our goverment having too much power!

There's a couple ways I can answer this question:

1. Since they can obviously put 2 and 2 together and declare it rightly so. Even Tony Snow, in his idiocy, at trying to claim this was not a civil war practically spelled out the definition of the word that would practically be synonymous with the situation in Iraq.

2. Since they have the power to declare which person will win the presidency, as they did in 2000, when it was obiously clear that the recount was not yet finished and it could have swung either way. (but lets not get into that whole thing again)

As far as the Allies taking Palastinian land after WWII, remember that the Palestine, as well as many other middle-eastern countries, allied themselves with Hitler and the Nazis due to their mutual hatred of Jews (mind you, prior to the formation of Israel). They lost. We took the land. That's what they call "the spoils of war." It may not be the best thing, but it happens after every major war.

Wow, huge flaw in this theory Brimmy.

First off a lot of countries took sides in WWII, but not every country fought in WWII. I Do not recall there being ANY Palestinian troops in Europe fighting alongside Italians and Germans.

Second how can we justify they stealing of land by a country that had no direct involvement in WWII, and then turn around and repair, renew, and revitalize the 3 main Axis powers (Germany, Italy, Japan) and give it right back to them? (East Germany aside) Where is the logic in that? I can just imagine the conversation...

"Oh hey guys...look, this tiny country down here...Pale-whosits, ya them, they said they like the Germans"
"Well then lets take their land and give it to another religion for the next 100 years, that will teach em who to like or not."
"Oh what about these 3 countries, Germany, Italy, and Japan?"
"What? Oh I don't know.  Fix em up and give it back to their own government, thatll teach em to invade foriegn countries and slaughter over 6 million people"

Complete idiocy...

Also, you have to understand that though we consider hezbollah a terrorist organization, they are in fact the Palestinian military. And as a military tactic, they launch rockets into Israel FROM civilian cites. Irael isn't trying to hit hezbollah, but rather the rocket sites from which they are attacking. This is not an act of terrorism, but an act of war. Of course, this is pointless in the long run, since they'll just get more rockets/launchers from syria and others.

Have you read exactly what we consider a terrorist group these days? In fuckin rediculous. Thankfully, a federal judge yesterday overturned Bush's right to declare whatever he wants a terrorist organization and thereby removing a couple "enemies of that state" off our list.

Also I am not defending Hezbollah, I believe they were as much of the problem as Israel was, but REGARDLESS they were firing rockets into civilian (sometimes schools) cities in Lebanon, a third party altogether in that little debacle. And are you telling me that the worlds "second best military force", your words not mine, can't go directly into where the problem is and flush it out that way with little to no civilian casualties? Why would they have to fling rockets back at them when they KNEW it was a civilian city. Because just like a lot of Muslims in that area hate the Jewish people and want to wipe them out, I am damn sure that Israel hates the Muslims and would have no problem with wiping them all out.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Israel isn't just sitting on Muslim holy land, but Jewish and Christian holy land as well. Also, you're probably not aware of the fact that anything within about 10 miles of a mosque (if I'm spelling that correctly) is considered holy land by Muslims. There is, by that logic, quite a lot of Muslim holy land here in America.

The Muslims took it back from the Jewish and Christians thousands of years ago in a time where land and religion meant everything. It was barbaric. So are you saying that today we are no better than how we were back then? Wow, amazing.

Should we give that "back" to them as well?

This is a loaded question (look it up if you dont know what it means) I refuse to answer it because it will make my argument look bad no matter if I agree or disagree to it. I've grown wise to your tricks Brimmy.  wink

"We are a mass of seething fury, elected as your judge and jury. You stand accused of murder, vanity, and evil crimes against humanity."-Andy Martin

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Re: American hatred

Going to work.  Gotta keep this kinda short:

After doing an hours worth of extensive research I could find nothing to back up what you are saying with this claim.

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html
This site is among the first that comes up when you type the question of how many deaths can be attributed to Saddam into google.  There are over 200,000 total resposes to the query.  Hours?  Really?

Furthermore, most estimates put the count from mass graves alone between 60 and 100 thousand, and estimates around 300,000 kurds shias and dissitents in general.  Also, 500,000 dead due to trade sanctions brought down on the country BECAUSE of Saddam's actions.  Now, since you count the amount of iraqi's killed since our invasion, you also should count the amount of people killed by Iraqi forces during the gulf war.  It adds up.

As far as the "civil war" declaration by MSNBC, my point was that a news organization should not have that power and anyone who willingly gives it to them (especially if you don't think even the government should have that kind of power) is a moron.  Now, I'm not talking about you here, but you have to admit that alot of people really do put that much stock in the "righteousness" of news organizations.

Wow, huge flaw in this theory Brimmy

All I said was that it happens in every major war.  I even made the point to say that "it may not be the best thing, but it happens."

Have you read exactly what we consider a terrorist group these days? In fuckin rediculous.

I agree completely with your point there.  "In" is fuckin rediculous!  wink

can't go directly into where the problem is and flush it out that way with little to no civilian casualties?

No.  Simply put, they can't.  Hey, WE can't even do that.  The very nature of war prevents this.  That's why we have the term "civilian casualties."  The only thing any responsible military can do is try to prevent as many of them as possible.  However, when it comes down to your own family and loved ones being killed and the family/loved ones of those killing them, what would you choose?

So are you saying that today we are no better than how we were back then? Wow, amazing.

Talk about a loaded question...  The fact is that RELIGIOUS EXTREMISM is the same today as it has always been.  Only difference is that now the extremists have MUCH more powerful weapons and don't have to look someone in the eye before killing them.  Makes killing kids easier I suppose.  Why are you for the killing of Israeli kids, and not Palestinian ones?  How is that fair?
^^^
Now THAT'S how you make a loaded question! big_smile

And my point about the Mosque-relative holyland was just to show you that holyland really can't be a convincing factor in your arguement.

You used to get those points.  Or was that mold?  Yeah, must have been.  He's much better at this than you. big_smile

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Re: American hatred

Back briefly between jobs to ask a few more questions:

1.  How have you been?  Serisously.  I want to know.
2.  What have you been up to since last we talked?
3.  What about your love life?  Do you have a significant other in your life?
4.  Are you still a Keebler Elf?

big_smile

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Re: American hatred

Back briefly between jobs to ask a few more questions:

1.  How have you been?  Serisously.  I want to know.
2.  What have you been up to since last we talked?
3.  What about your love life?  Do you have a significant other in your life?
4.  Are you still a Keebler Elf?

big_smile

You know I had written out a whole page over the course of a 3 hour period (long breaks in between) to counter your points, but fuck it, I decided to delete it. We both know how this dance is gonna go.  wink Argue until we get bored with the debate and move onto something else.

As for the other things:
1. Been doing great. Toured around Europe last summer. It was fuckin awesome. Hung out in Ireland, went on to Norway, Sweden, Germany, and Amsterdam before returning to the states. Planning on hitting up London in the next few months.
2. I dont remember how long ago that was, but lets see, still going to school, decided to major in political science and then move on to law school after that. Perhaps I'll join the ACLU.  big_smile I also have a kickass job, lead creative control over the future design of studentstuff.com (database that should provide college students with a world of resources). OH! This will make you happy, I recently found out that I have legal French citizenship. Muahaha, easy ticket into the EU when I decide its time to leave.
3. Well I had a girlfriend for about 3 years but I ended that just over a year ago, played the fields for about 10 months (nothing more than a couple dates here and there), and now I have had a stable girl for...actually 3 months today, which is great. I'm happy with it. For a while,, back in my single days, I was starting to worry I wasn't ever going to want to be in a stable relationship again, which is kind of depressing if you think about.
4. If there is one corporation I'll shill, its going to be Keebler cookies. Once a keebler, always a muthafuckin keebler!

you?

"We are a mass of seething fury, elected as your judge and jury. You stand accused of murder, vanity, and evil crimes against humanity."-Andy Martin

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Re: American hatred

America is severely disappointing because they continue to let the bellinger brothers occupy it...  :x
Which in turn brings the country's respect level and residential values rock bottom.

[img]http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg[/img]

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Re: American hatred

We both know how this dance is gonna go.

The first intelligent point I've heard from either side in a long time.  Hmm....  I guess you are better at this than mold tongue  At any rate, let's save the rest of the arguement for the next topic.  At least it will keep things fun!

As for the other things:

1.  sounds great.  When you hit London, look for a small suburb called Abridgeton.  My Goddaughter and her mother live there.  It's a nice, little place.
2.  Political Science?  Law?  ACLU?  FRENCH!  That's it!  I'm officially starting my own country:  The United States of Anyone But You!  The good old USA...B...Y... Well, you get the joke anyway.  Anywho, if you need any help with the new job, let me know.  I'll be happy to lend a hand.
3.  It is a bit depressing.  BUT, we've all been there, and more than likely, you'll be back there yourself.  If you take none of my advice, please at least consider this:  Don't put too much pressure on yourself to find 'the one.'  When you meet someone you're interested in, give it a try.  If it doesn't work out, move on.  That is a "mature relationship."  Trust me, it sneaks up on you! wink
4.  The worst thing about Keebler is that they have no fear.  After all, they don't make fully-automatic assult rifles in "Elf" sizes, so they don't have to worry about disgruntled employees.  When will the gun makers learn? big_smile

As for me:
Still tending bar.  I'm writting a book about bar-room philosophy.  No long -term plans as far as relationships.  Since Amy passed, I've had a hard time in that area, but I'm looking UP now.  Made quite a bit of money off recent investments and I'm thinking about opening my own bar.  That's about it since we last talked.  If you have any other questions, let me know.