Bots (Page 1 of 4)

James,

Can you clarify what you are detecting? For instance, does "Macroing while NOT AFK" considered a bot? Is a macro detected as a bot? I use macros to help with lumberjacking, as an example.

Clarification would help the AFK vs Not AFK

Disabling Holy Aura will 100% be a good idea - there are some of us that enjoy going around and killing the bots leveling and the holy aura is a pain... as well as the criminal/murderer flag.

^ Self regulation is a great idea and this lets us do it

there is chat logs of you at lvl 800 threatning mouse & Tr!pp lvl 300? that because they killd you in pvp and you lost , you threatend to use pvp programs vs them to kill them? after that you are kos to me , now you crying that i use something? funny ,

whenever you want however u want we can pvp you will lose 

Last edited by Salazzar(HM) (October 22nd, 2024 1:59 PM)

It would be nice if it was lenient on simple right click macros. It might be a tightrope punishing the worst use of these tools vs. relatively harmless use.

James,

I'm glad to see you're reaching out to the community for opinions on this matter, it's one I've considered at length from both sides of the argument. I've been around since the early 2000's and have seen the evolution of the community, game and botting. Botting has always been a part of Faldon, like technology, it has improved with time. It's been amplified by our experience and things like % items being added/fixed.

When considering this issue I think it's important to focus on the rationale and not the immediate pros and cons, but they are worth noting. Today's server is an amalgamation of decades of abuse, misuse, exploitation and neglect. Yet, we still try to play it. New and (mostly) returning players alike are faced with a mountain of progress and exploitation to compete with, yet we rise to the occasion. Progress is relative in MMO's, some could say the level 2k on the leaderboard is an abomination, I see it as a challenge. Some could see the items people have amassed and see them as ruining the game, I see at as the game we are playing. It's not just levels though, its all sorts of progression from skills, to items, to gold.

It seems us who chose to see the current game state as the parameters in which we're forced to compete are demonized. Historically speaking, the damage is done. We're just better at botting than we used to be.

The main issue with stopping/slowing/preventing botting it's never really foolproof, especially programmatically. There's numerous methods that are being used in other games, such as OCR(onscreen recognition) and network level packet injecting that would not be detectible. These methods are being used on Blizzards games, and they've put years and 10's of millions into stopping it to no avail.

The main argument for stopping botting is to give manual players a fair chance, that chance is blown. It's over.

All that said, I think there is a goldilocks solution here happily.

The current server with all its faults is our faldon. I've played it off and on since I was a teenager, we have worked for decades to get where we are. To lose that would be a real shame, even with all its faults. It doesn't provide a fair experience and never will for those who wish to play it manually. The current server should remain, largely in the same regulation it has in the past which is next to none.

There is no fair way to undo the damage done over the decades though, and you've said it yourself, it wouldn't take much effort or ongoing server resources to run a second server.

There should be a second server, one heavily moderated. No botting of any kind, no AFK progression, no macroing, etc. Regular balancing would be required. This would be the only way give players who wish to play manually a fair shot.

In closing, I think any tinkering with game play at this point on the current server gives too much advantage to those who have historically benefited from the ability to abuse the game and punishes those who wish to compete with that damage today. Further, it doesn't actually help those who wish to have a manual experience as those who wish to abuse the system will find new an creative ways to do so. A second server with heavy moderation is likely the lowest effort to solve this problem anyhow. There are plenty of players who would volunteer to moderate, myself included.

I am very knowledgeable on the entirety and history of botting in Faldon if you'd like to discuss this one on one, I could give you an idea of where we're at today and what was done in the past.

If you made it to the end, thanks for reading.

I'm glad you're cracking down on bots Zer. PvP bots are extremely lame, that goes without question. Cracking down on this is a big step forward. Keeping track of who bots and who doesn't and weighing the consequences is reassuring to me too that you aim to balance this game as you envision it.

I think your decisions concerning PVP bots is %100 necessary, it should be made apart of a sort of Terms of Service of Faldon that if violated results in harsh consequences.

Other than that, concerning other forms of botting such as afk leveling:

I think the afk leveling thing is pretty lame too, I only got so many hours in the day to play the game, but to an afk leveler their time is limitless so long as they go unpunished. I know my PVP experience is going to suck because of it, closing the level gap as a fair player seems like an impossible task. Couple this with the times a player will be leveling at a spawn at their keyboard only to get griefed or pk'd by these OP botters who didn't actually play the game, or being pursued by one throughout the map to the point one must simply f9 and relog is also not very fun but rather very aggravating - the outcome of letting bot levelers run rampant on your game doesn't reward fair players and retains the cheaters and exploiters who feel justified doing what they do simply because they make up the majority of the population(or so it may seem from all the double/triple/quadruple boxing botting), or simply because they think they make the game not feel so much like a ghost town, which it probably wouldn't be in the first place if there was more enforcement to begin with.

EDIT: TLDR Bot leveling shouldn't be a thing unless the person is at the keyboard and are active enough to respond to every single box they have open*

Last edited by *~-.-~* (October 22nd, 2024 4:26 PM)

Until there's a second server, your opinion about my opinion is irrelevant. The experience rewards cheaters and not fair players.

Hi James,

It's always good to hear from someone who truly cares about the game's future. I haven’t had the chance to read through all the replies, but I’ve noticed that those who are upset often voice their concerns the loudest. So, I’ll just share my perspective and leave it at that.

The bot I’ve created, which many players are using, was originally designed with a primary focus on enhancing the PVE experience. While it includes an option for PVP, this is just one feature among many. However, it seems to have garnered more attention than it deserves.

Personally, if AFK-botting were no longer allowed, I’d have little interest in continuing to play. As mentioned previously, if my presence or contribution isn't wanted, all you have to do is ask, and I will gracefully step away.

From my experience, the majority of players are currently AFK leveling. So, the real decision here is whether to embrace and cater to the majority of players or focus on the vocal minority.

Regarding PVP botting, I honestly don’t see it as a significant issue. The players using bots aren’t going around terrorizing others; if anything, it’s the smaller group of players who feel that their dominance is being challenged who are the most vocal about it. Ironically, it’s the few trying to impose their will on the many who feel the impact, but perhaps you might have a different view on fairness.

If you believe that PVP botting is creating an imbalance, I’d be more than happy to disable this feature. We could even introduce warnings for players that using bots for PVP will lead to consequences such as bans or jail time, ensuring fairness for everyone. If, however, you feel that the bot as a whole is detrimental to the game, I’ll remove it, though I think the game would suffer for it. My reason for saying this isn’t a threat; it’s just the reality that many players, myself included, are here for nostalgic reasons. We’re trying to achieve goals we couldn’t reach when we had more time as kids, but now life is different. Most of us simply don’t have the time to invest as we once did, especially in a game that requires slow progression.

I absolutely love Faldon in its current state. The ability to AFK level, the in-game drama, and the occasional PVP wars—these elements bring a modern twist to the game while maintaining the essence of what made it great in the past. The progression system in this game is naturally slow, and allowing AFK-botting has breathed new life into it. People can enjoy the experience without feeling like they’re falling behind because of real-world obligations.

As for GM Wu's idea of selectively banning players, I see a much bigger issue here. The current GMs, some of whom have a history of abuse and misusing their powers, are not the right people to be making these decisions. Allowing them to selectively ban or jail players opens up a massive grey area for abuse, favoritism, and inconsistency. Given the past, it’s not hard to see how this could lead to further damage to the community.

In my opinion, it’s time to reconsider who is leading and shaping the future of Faldon. The people who genuinely care about the game, the ones who are actively creating tools to enhance the experience and keep the server running smoothly, should have more control and say in these matters. The GMs who abused their power in the past shouldn’t still be in these positions of authority, especially when their input seems more harmful than helpful.

I also believe the game would benefit from collaborating with those of us who are actively developing these tools. Instead of seeing bots as a threat, why not view them as a way to enhance the experience for the majority of players? In fact, integrating bots in a way that improves overall server performance, while setting clear boundaries (such as prohibiting bots for certain types of activities like PVP), would provide structure. A poll might even reveal that the majority of players enjoy the current state of the game, thanks in part to these AFK tools.

Finally, I'd like to suggest that Faldon has evolved. The rules of the past were designed for a different era, but now the game has moved into a new phase where AFK leveling and botting have become integral to the player experience. It’s worth considering that many modern games, particularly those designed to be AFK-friendly (like idle or clicker games), thrive on similar mechanics. These games recognize that players' time is valuable, and offering an AFK component helps maintain engagement. By embracing this shift, Faldon can cater to a larger group of players who want to enjoy the game but may not have endless hours to invest.

In conclusion, allowing AFK-botting has made Faldon more accessible, enjoyable, and, frankly, sustainable. While it may not be for everyone, it's worth acknowledging that it’s a driving factor behind the game’s current vibrancy. Personally, I think it’s something worth preserving, but I respect your decision either way.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Fully disallowing all AFK activity would be a mistake and become an unmanageable 24/7 witch hunt.

But there's a clear line that can be drawn.

1) Simple automation using an unmodified client and no packet manipulation. The macro/bot has only the information intended to be provided to them by the standard client. Simply put, it's automating the capabilities of a player.

^ This is QoL and should be allowed.

2) Modified clients, packet manipulation, and any other detectable techniques to extract additional information or control the client in a way beyond what a player can do with the standard UI.

^ This is cheating and should be banned.

Last edited by Phreak (October 22nd, 2024 5:38 PM)

I can make automation tools without client mods or packet manipulation that would fool many people to think otherwise. Giving the current gms the power and freedom to selectively ban users based on their preference of 'too smart' is a bad idea IMO.

Cherry picking one point doesn't defeat my over arching point which is: cheaters get rewarded, fair play doesn't

A few hours a day, maybe 12 on an off day, used to be a normal thing friend. And what are you talking about - back in the day on the leader boards people did pass each other, Anom got toppled by Lifetek at one point. And for everyone else below that top 10 ladder, closing the gap was certainly possible, again you're just hand wave dismissing the fact that it was possible to get close enough, even within 100 levels or even 200 levels of a top 10 character and the way the game was designed back then it was harder for higher levels to even gain 1 level a day whereas players a hundred, or two hundred levels below could gain up to 5 or 10 levels a day if they tried.

Leveling used to be a well earned grind, now it's been turned into an autopilot experience that again: rewards cheaters rather than fair players. That's the main point of my whole post. So again your opinion is completely irrelevant and doesn't address my point.

Last edited by *~-.-~* (October 22nd, 2024 6:43 PM)

No, I hear your point loud and clear. You're failing to hear mine. The damage is done, there's nothing that blocking bots will do to take this game back to 2003 and the time period you're talking about.

The issue is we're constricted by the amount of effort that can be exerted to fix this problem. With what I would assume would be similar amounts of effort, to block bots, or give you a new server where you can play with like minded individuals. The block bot route is a hopeless one, as it will always evolve and not to mention, the server is already way past the state where it matters. The heavily moderated new server route would accomplish what you want.

If I was in your position, I feel like that's where I would want the effort spent, to give you the experience you're looking for. Not to spend a lot of effort to slow down botting for some amount of time and still be over leveled by 90% of the population.