26 Reply by *~-.-~*

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Re: Bots

iMouse wrote:
Mechanic wrote:
*~-.-~* wrote:

Until there's a second server, your opinion about my opinion is irrelevant. The experience rewards cheaters and not fair players.

Care to explain how you would close the level gap playing a few hours a day? I think my point is extremely relevant.

It's not just about closing the level gap or reversing all the previous damage done through cheating. I don't even care about the leader boards. Although a new server with some tweaks would be nice (apparently ppl have been asking for it for years), addressing the bots will improve the game play experience for legitimate players.

Also I would like to suggest removing "pets fetch" command to make it harder to AFK camp for items.

I can get behind this, great idea to hinder afk farming. Everything from AFK farming which gives them their surplus of items they can sell for USD, to their AFK leveling which gives them pvp superiority to control spawns, who pits, who levels at what spawn, etc. needs to go. They don't want to let go of any of it because they're having too good of a time exploiting and using this game to their advantage. And they have the audacity to deny that what they're doing completely destroyed any potential this game was meant to have. Not only this, some of them have the nerve to actually boast that all this botting actually helped rofl. Oh and if Zer decides to put his foot down they'll threaten to leave. What an utter clown show.

The way I see it Zer has two choices. He can cater to them and let them have their way with his game with their afk farms and leveling, and never see this game grow beyond that particular population and culture, or he can uproot all the weeds, clean the soil and plant some new seed (metaphorically speaking). Sure nothing grows to maturity and produces fruit over night but that'll be for him to decide. Whether or not this game is as profitable to him now or if he wants to confidently take the chance to see if he can push it even further and make it even better.

Once this game looks good enough, and has a solid introduction for new players, he can grow this game from the ground up all over again, and all these self centered assholes want to do is doubt that this could happen by saying this is all Faldon really has to offer, it is as good as it can get right now thanks to botting because that's how it's always been. No that's just them articulating their own self absorbed justifications for keeping all of their ill gained exploits.

Last edited by *~-.-~* (Yesterday 7:17 PM)

Matt 25:31-46

27 Reply by Master Wu

  • Master Wu
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Re: Bots

bullethead123 wrote:

As for GM Wu's idea of selectively banning players, I see a much bigger issue here. The current GMs, some of whom have a history of abuse and misusing their powers, are not the right people to be making these decisions. Allowing them to selectively ban or jail players opens up a massive grey area for abuse, favoritism, and inconsistency. Given the past, it’s not hard to see how this could lead to further damage to the community.

In my opinion, it’s time to reconsider who is leading and shaping the future of Faldon. The people who genuinely care about the game, the ones who are actively creating tools to enhance the experience and keep the server running smoothly, should have more control and say in these matters. The GMs who abused their power in the past shouldn’t still be in these positions of authority, especially when their input seems more harmful than helpful.

What are you on about?

Seriously. Where did I say anything about banning players? lol

My "idea" is that we should make game-play compelling, and more interactive. So, you know, people might want to be present for it. I have no interest, and never have patrolled Faldon banning players for botting.

I also think people creating and selling the tools that are the topic of the discussion should have the least amount of input.

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28 Reply by bullethead123

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Re: Bots

*~-.-~* wrote:

y have the audacity to deny that what they're doing completely destroyed any potential this game was meant to have. Not only this, some of them have the nerve to actually boast that all this botting actually helped rofl. Oh and if Zer decides to put his foot down they'll threaten to leave. What an utter clown show.

While I understand your point, it's important to remember that AFK-ing isn’t a new phenomenon. Players have been doing it since the early days of the game, despite bans, jails, and wipes. Even with these measures, people kept returning to AFK, which speaks to a fundamental truth: there’s real demand for this feature.

The key difference now is that AFK-ing has been openly allowed or tolerated, whereas in the past it was done more discreetly. This shift has brought the debate into the open, but it’s important to note that it’s primarily a small group pushing for a ban, while the majority of players seem to enjoy the game as it is.

While I clearly have my opinions, the numbers don’t lie. After every client update, Zer himself has seen that only a handful of players log back in right away, and even then, half of those are just AFKers resetting their bots.

29 Reply by Phreak

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Re: Bots

bullethead123 wrote:

I can make automation tools without client mods or packet manipulation that would fool many people to think otherwise. Giving the current gms the power and freedom to selectively ban users based on their preference of 'too smart' is a bad idea IMO.

You're missing the point or trying to argue around it.

Of course you can make automation tools that don't use client mods or packet manipulation. But they will be inherently more fair because they're not making use of information or control beyond what's intended for the player with the standard client.

I've made many such tools for many games. There's a world of difference between the two cases. When you're limited to reading the screen and simulating player inputs there will always be additional latency and a more equivalent performance to an actual player.

You prove that point by using the methods you do. You use them because they're superior to the information and controls available to a player through the intended client experience.

Accessing information that isn't available through the standard client, or communicating with the server outside of the standard client, is a completely reasonable place to draw the line on what's automation and what's cheating.

Nothing in my post suggests mods "selectively ban users based on too smart". My post suggests a clear line which is both detectable and easy to understand.

30 Reply by bullethead123

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Re: Bots

Phreak wrote:
bullethead123 wrote:

I can make automation tools without client mods or packet manipulation that would fool many people to think otherwise. Giving the current gms the power and freedom to selectively ban users based on their preference of 'too smart' is a bad idea IMO.

You're missing the point or trying to argue around it.

Of course you can make automation tools that don't use client mods or packet manipulation. But they will be inherently more fair because they're not making use of information or control beyond what's intended for the player with the standard client.

I've made many such tools for many games. There's a world of difference between the two cases. When you're limited to reading the screen and simulating player inputs there will always be additional latency and a more equivalent performance to an actual player.

You prove that point by using the methods you do. You use them because they're superior to the information and controls available to a player through the intended client experience.

Accessing information that isn't available through the standard client, or communicating with the server outside of the standard client, is a completely reasonable place to draw the line on what's automation and what's cheating.

Nothing in my post suggests mods "selectively ban users based on too smart". My post suggests a clear line which is both detectable and easy to understand.

It’s actually quite ironic, as you've unintentionally proven my point. I mentioned that I can create a bot so sophisticated that a third party might assume it's using packet injection due to its capabilities. In fact, I already have—my first bot, which I streamed, was entirely third-party, using no packet or client manipulation. The real issue here is the inconsistency in what’s deemed acceptable. You’ve essentially said, “If it’s less advanced, then it’s fine,” but the reality is that this subjective line of what’s considered “too smart” is exactly why giving GMs the power to make selective bans is a bad idea.

The concern isn’t whether automation can be made without packet manipulation—it’s that drawing a line based on perceived sophistication leads to inconsistencies and leaves players vulnerable to arbitrary decisions.

Last edited by bullethead123 (Yesterday 9:11 PM)

31 Reply by Phreak

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Re: Bots

bullethead123 wrote:
Phreak wrote:
bullethead123 wrote:

I can make automation tools without client mods or packet manipulation that would fool many people to think otherwise. Giving the current gms the power and freedom to selectively ban users based on their preference of 'too smart' is a bad idea IMO.

You're missing the point or trying to argue around it.

Of course you can make automation tools that don't use client mods or packet manipulation. But they will be inherently more fair because they're not making use of information or control beyond what's intended for the player with the standard client.

I've made many such tools for many games. There's a world of difference between the two cases. When you're limited to reading the screen and simulating player inputs there will always be additional latency and a more equivalent performance to an actual player.

You prove that point by using the methods you do. You use them because they're superior to the information and controls available to a player through the intended client experience.

Accessing information that isn't available through the standard client, or communicating with the server outside of the standard client, is a completely reasonable place to draw the line on what's automation and what's cheating.

Nothing in my post suggests mods "selectively ban users based on too smart". My post suggests a clear line which is both detectable and easy to understand.

It’s actually quite ironic, as you've unintentionally proven my point. I mentioned that I can create a bot so sophisticated that a third party might assume it's using packet injection due to its capabilities. In fact, I already have—my first bot, which I streamed, was entirely third-party, using no packet or client manipulation. The real issue here is the inconsistency in what’s deemed acceptable. You’ve essentially said, “If it’s less advanced, then it’s fine,” but the reality is that this subjective line of what’s considered “too smart” is exactly why giving GMs the power to make selective bans is a bad idea.

The concern isn’t whether automation can be made without packet manipulation—it’s that drawing a line based on perceived sophistication leads to inconsistencies and leaves players vulnerable to arbitrary decisions.

You're deliberately conflating a clear line (control and information available to the player through the standard client), with a red-herring of "arbitrary perception of sophistication".

You're not honestly engaging with my suggestion. You're instead obfuscating and attempting to strawman a clearly defined objective position into something subjective. It's not a good look when combined with the implicit appearance of bias added by your position as the maker of tool which uses methods I'm suggesting should be considered cheating.

If a player hides behind something, another player (or a simple automation tool which uses the information available on the screen) can't see it. Your tool can.

That's not fair play. That's not a perception of sophistication. That's an objective real-time advantage for a tool vs a player.

It's a clear line and it also happens to be a line that would be somewhat more enforceable than other lines by detection.

32 Reply by Supla

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Re: Bots

bullethead123 wrote:

Hi James,

It's always good to hear from someone who truly cares about the game's future. I haven’t had the chance to read through all the replies, but I’ve noticed that those who are upset often voice their concerns the loudest. So, I’ll just share my perspective and leave it at that.

The bot I’ve created, which many players are using, was originally designed with a primary focus on enhancing the PVE experience. While it includes an option for PVP, this is just one feature among many. However, it seems to have garnered more attention than it deserves.

Personally, if AFK-botting were no longer allowed, I’d have little interest in continuing to play. As mentioned previously, if my presence or contribution isn't wanted, all you have to do is ask, and I will gracefully step away.

From my experience, the majority of players are currently AFK leveling. So, the real decision here is whether to embrace and cater to the majority of players or focus on the vocal minority.

Regarding PVP botting, I honestly don’t see it as a significant issue. The players using bots aren’t going around terrorizing others; if anything, it’s the smaller group of players who feel that their dominance is being challenged who are the most vocal about it. Ironically, it’s the few trying to impose their will on the many who feel the impact, but perhaps you might have a different view on fairness.

If you believe that PVP botting is creating an imbalance, I’d be more than happy to disable this feature. We could even introduce warnings for players that using bots for PVP will lead to consequences such as bans or jail time, ensuring fairness for everyone. If, however, you feel that the bot as a whole is detrimental to the game, I’ll remove it, though I think the game would suffer for it. My reason for saying this isn’t a threat; it’s just the reality that many players, myself included, are here for nostalgic reasons. We’re trying to achieve goals we couldn’t reach when we had more time as kids, but now life is different. Most of us simply don’t have the time to invest as we once did, especially in a game that requires slow progression.

I absolutely love Faldon in its current state. The ability to AFK level, the in-game drama, and the occasional PVP wars—these elements bring a modern twist to the game while maintaining the essence of what made it great in the past. The progression system in this game is naturally slow, and allowing AFK-botting has breathed new life into it. People can enjoy the experience without feeling like they’re falling behind because of real-world obligations.

As for GM Wu's idea of selectively banning players, I see a much bigger issue here. The current GMs, some of whom have a history of abuse and misusing their powers, are not the right people to be making these decisions. Allowing them to selectively ban or jail players opens up a massive grey area for abuse, favoritism, and inconsistency. Given the past, it’s not hard to see how this could lead to further damage to the community.

In my opinion, it’s time to reconsider who is leading and shaping the future of Faldon. The people who genuinely care about the game, the ones who are actively creating tools to enhance the experience and keep the server running smoothly, should have more control and say in these matters. The GMs who abused their power in the past shouldn’t still be in these positions of authority, especially when their input seems more harmful than helpful.

I also believe the game would benefit from collaborating with those of us who are actively developing these tools. Instead of seeing bots as a threat, why not view them as a way to enhance the experience for the majority of players? In fact, integrating bots in a way that improves overall server performance, while setting clear boundaries (such as prohibiting bots for certain types of activities like PVP), would provide structure. A poll might even reveal that the majority of players enjoy the current state of the game, thanks in part to these AFK tools.

Finally, I'd like to suggest that Faldon has evolved. The rules of the past were designed for a different era, but now the game has moved into a new phase where AFK leveling and botting have become integral to the player experience. It’s worth considering that many modern games, particularly those designed to be AFK-friendly (like idle or clicker games), thrive on similar mechanics. These games recognize that players' time is valuable, and offering an AFK component helps maintain engagement. By embracing this shift, Faldon can cater to a larger group of players who want to enjoy the game but may not have endless hours to invest.

In conclusion, allowing AFK-botting has made Faldon more accessible, enjoyable, and, frankly, sustainable. While it may not be for everyone, it's worth acknowledging that it’s a driving factor behind the game’s current vibrancy. Personally, I think it’s something worth preserving, but I respect your decision either way.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

I didnt want to start a discussion with you again, but you just cant stop lying.

You cant be serious. Firstly, you were the first person trying to get James to ban afking, upgrading server to SSL and such, because you couldnt make bots like others, you even offered him help on bchat in game. Then you got to make your bot, so you started selling it and and never talked about anti cheating again.

Now you say "if you want me remove the pvp bot you just have to say", you were the only person who had a pvp bot for a whole month and sold it along with your program, I asked you to remove that, everyone did, you even said once that you were gonna remove it, but you never did. There was a reason no one used pvp bots over the last 10-20 years, it wasnt knowledge issue, it's common sense. You want to run your afk stuff on pve? Fine, but dont get that shit onto pvp, everyone always known that. How can you say you love occasional pvp wars when all you did on a war was programming ur bot to auto path to spawn and attack everyone who hit you, you never fought a war, you have to understand that, you have no clue how a war on Faldon is

Finally, wtf you talking about GMs who abused their power are still in the current team? You should say names instead of only spread lies.

Well, i didnt want to say that, but you and your ego war ruined and is ruining the game. Game was much better without you, and a lot of ppl will agree with that. Idk if this will make things less worse to you, but it's not only you, i could say a few more names besides you, ppl being toxic 24/7 on chat, ppl saying things that no one should read, if a new player, mainly kids, was trying the game, they would never come back, and several more problems.

33 Reply by Mister Rob

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Re: Bots

I just see a whole lot of entitled people here. This game owes you fuck all. What is needed however, is that players, for once, stop their shit and really think about what is good FOR the game instead of what is good for themselves. Most complaining Ive seen (e.g. lag spikes a month ago) are always about "my bot cant work properly because the game is bugged".

Its seriously has been a while since Ive seen people actively try and make things better for others or new players (yeah I know youre here)

Imho, GMs should stop giving a damn about current players and try to move on from this arrogant and egoistic playerbase.

Evil Devil - Prometherion