Bots (Page 2 of 4)

What are you on about?

Seriously. Where did I say anything about banning players? lol

My "idea" is that we should make game-play compelling, and more interactive. So, you know, people might want to be present for it. I have no interest, and never have patrolled Faldon banning players for botting.

I also think people creating and selling the tools that are the topic of the discussion should have the least amount of input.

You're missing the point or trying to argue around it.

Of course you can make automation tools that don't use client mods or packet manipulation. But they will be inherently more fair because they're not making use of information or control beyond what's intended for the player with the standard client.

I've made many such tools for many games. There's a world of difference between the two cases. When you're limited to reading the screen and simulating player inputs there will always be additional latency and a more equivalent performance to an actual player.

You prove that point by using the methods you do. You use them because they're superior to the information and controls available to a player through the intended client experience.

Accessing information that isn't available through the standard client, or communicating with the server outside of the standard client, is a completely reasonable place to draw the line on what's automation and what's cheating.

Nothing in my post suggests mods "selectively ban users based on too smart". My post suggests a clear line which is both detectable and easy to understand.

You're deliberately conflating a clear line (control and information available to the player through the standard client), with a red-herring of "arbitrary perception of sophistication".

You're not honestly engaging with my suggestion. You're instead obfuscating and attempting to strawman a clearly defined objective position into something subjective. It's not a good look when combined with the implicit appearance of bias added by your position as the maker of tool which uses methods I'm suggesting should be considered cheating.

If a player hides behind something, another player (or a simple automation tool which uses the information available on the screen) can't see it. Your tool can.

That's not fair play. That's not a perception of sophistication. That's an objective real-time advantage for a tool vs a player.

It's a clear line and it also happens to be a line that would be somewhat more enforceable than other lines by detection.

I just see a whole lot of entitled people here. This game owes you fuck all. What is needed however, is that players, for once, stop their shit and really think about what is good FOR the game instead of what is good for themselves. Most complaining Ive seen (e.g. lag spikes a month ago) are always about "my bot cant work properly because the game is bugged".

Its seriously has been a while since Ive seen people actively try and make things better for others or new players (yeah I know youre here)

Imho, GMs should stop giving a damn about current players and try to move on from this arrogant and egoistic playerbase.

Yeah, like I said I know they are around. Im just fed up with people thinking that botting should be allowed because thats the way they "play" the game and complain because of it.

well i asked gms for punishment vs pvp programs i got the answere "dont care tell zer not my problem" type shit ,

when it comes to ingame filters ppl will find a way around it , how about we do what other games do? somone types racist shit they get chat banned 1month or something? not end of the world as a punishment

back to the afk lvling , my point on this is what do you want me to manual?
im hitting same tigers since 2008? whats the point we have no mobs no updates no new spawns nothing.
new items? i saw the "idea" of them and they all suck +5 stats etc , warrior scimitar? less stats then shittiest wep i can find on the floor

there is just no content for me (read us old players who have done everything in the game) to manual play
im not in the mood to do 300 sewers to get on avg 1 shield of the accursed wich litterly sucks outside of looks.

sure remove pvp programs make it wipe like back in the day 1 skill 1 lvl for those that use whatever ill just be happier ,

but removing camping? afk lvling? for what? u want people to afk camp like mouse write remove "s pets fetch" he wants us to manually camp a mob 3 months for an item that somone has 50 copies of :skull:
and when it comes to lvling ive said this 9000 times , there is no point in manual lvling , pit gives no exp, sewer give no exp, the buffs to raid does fuckall, we need better content for manual players,  dailies , whatever some catch up mechanics for new players
every week i have a new gambit "im boutta make a name for myself" roll up and ask me for spells that i need to relog 50 chars to find him one and charge them 0 for it since there is no where in the game to get it that makes sense to camp for new players.
the issue with afk is deeper then people cheat cuz they wanna cheat.

when it comes to M's / Gms i see why people have trust issues etc, most of them (all of them) outside of Wu have been involved in some shady shit one way or another , i see alot of blame in game goin for juza/nipsey but from what i understood not sure if true or not he couldnt spawn items , so some other gm had to be involved in that one but thats water under the bridge i guess
now that most of those items are collected in one spot and hidden away , but alot of money been floating around and alot of shady shit happend over the years with the gms could be reason players are so fast on being defensive when they hear gms punishing people again.

Last edited by Salazzar(HM) (October 23rd, 2024 4:23 AM)

The irony of this whole situation isn't lost on me. The loudest voices complaining about server stability and game health are often the same ones running multiple clients with bots 24/7. Salazzar mentioned "no content for manual players" while actively contributing to spawn camping with bots. Bullet talks about game sustainability while selling tools that ultimately stress the server - remember those lag spikes last month? Yeah, that wasn't from people actually playing.

Look, I get Mechanic's point about the damage being done already. And yes, Bullet makes a fair point about the reality of modern gaming and time constraints. But let's be real - we're not seeing genuine game growth here. What we're seeing is inflation of numbers: more AFK characters, more botted skills, more farmed items. When's the last time you saw genuine player interaction that wasn't about bot configurations or spawn disputes?

The whole "but botting keeps players in the game" argument is a circular logic trap. We're keeping players who aren't really playing. And yes, I know some of you will say "but what about the social aspect?" - well, that's exactly my point. The social aspect has devolved into comparing bot efficiency and arguing over who's hogging spawns with their AFK army.

Bullet touched on something interesting about money being made, and while that's a reality of any game economy, it shouldn't be the driving force. What we need is to focus on making the game engaging enough that people want to actually play it, not just run it in the background while they play something else.

What pisses me off most isn't even the botting itself - it's the entitled attitude that comes with it. When the server has issues, instead of asking "how can we help fix this?", the first response is always "my bot isn't working properly." That's not a community that cares about the game's future; that's a community that cares about their personal gain.

The mental gymnastics here are Olympic level. You went from "I'll remove features if asked" to "well actually everyone's doing it" real quick. And that bit about GMs abusing power? Rich coming from someone actively selling tools that harm the game.

You talk about "modern gaming trends" and AFK mechanics, but there's a massive difference between idle games built for that purpose and taking a multiplayer game and gutting its actual gameplay. You're not "enhancing the experience" - you're basically turning Faldon into a crypto miner that occasionally shows pixels.

The "majority of players" argument is laughable when some of those "players" are just alt accounts running your scripts. That's not a playerbase, that's a bot farm with a chat function. And that "gracefully step away" threat? Classic manipulation - trying to make it sound like you're doing everyone a favor while basically saying "my way or I leave."

"Collaborate with bot developers"? Are you serious? That's like asking a virus to help design the immune system. You're not enhancing anything - you're profiting off the game's deterioration while pretending you're some kind of community benefactor.

While I appreciate you trying to find middle ground here, you're basically suggesting we officially divide the game into "actual players" and "bot runners." The problem is, we've already tried the "let people do whatever" approach - that's how we got here.

A new server sounds nice in theory, but let's be honest - as long as we keep enabling this behavior on the main server, that's where most resources and development time will go. We need to fix the core issue, not create a sanctuary for the few players who still want to actually play the game.

"There's nothing to do manually" might be the most self-aware wolf comment I've seen yet. Of course there's nothing to do - because bot runners have completely screwed the economy and progression system. You can't manually farm anything when every spawn has 5 AFK characters camping it 24/7.

You want better content? Great, so do I. But how about we start by making the existing content actually playable by humans again? Hard to justify developing new content when it'll just be botted to death within a week.

And that comment about "every week I have a new gambit" - maybe, just maybe, if we didn't have people running 50 alt accounts, new players might actually have a chance to progress naturally?

While I appreciate trying to draw technical lines between different types of automation, we're way past that point. The problem isn't the technical implementation - it's the mentality. When people are more invested in their bot configurations than actual gameplay, the exact method they're using to avoid playing the game becomes kind of irrelevant.

"Simple automation" vs "packet manipulation" is just splitting hairs when both end up with the same result: people not actually playing the game.

If we want this game to have any future beyond being a botting playground, something needs to change. And maybe that means some people will leave. But I'd rather have 5 active players than 50 AFK bots.

Look, I've been around since 2001, and anyone who knows me can vouch that I've always tried to help EVERYONE who crossed my path in this game. Didn't matter if you were a newbie or a veteran, if you needed help, I was there. That's what this community used to be about.

But I haven't really been playing lately, and it's not just because of my personal situation. Every time I've logged on in the last month, it's been one big toxic festival. The chat is filled with people bragging about their bot configurations, arguing over spawn rights, or throwing around threats about who's going to get banned or reported.

Remember when we used to have actual conversations? Share stories? Help new players? Now it's just a constant stream of bot settings, macro configurations, and people complaining their automation isn't working properly. Even the simple joy of helping newcomers has been killed because they get immediately overwhelmed by seeing high-level characters standing AFK at every spawn point.

I've spent over two decades trying to keep this community together. Hell, half of you reading this probably got your first set of gear from me or came to me for advice at some point. I still want to help, still want to see this game thrive, but this fucking attitude needs to change.

So yeah, maybe I'm just an old timer yelling at clouds here, but this isn't the Faldon I've spent 20+ years supporting and playing. And until we actually address these issues instead of making excuses for them, I'll probably keep my distance. Because watching something you care about turn into this is just... well, it's fucking sad.

And before anyone starts - yeah, I know exactly what role I've played in all this over the years. The difference is I can actually see when something's fucked up and needs to change, instead of trying to justify it with bullshit about "game evolution" and "player retention." I've seen where this road leads, I don't like it at all.

James, I'll be straight with you because that's how I've always been. This isn't just about PvP bots - it's about what we want Faldon to be. I've been here since 2001, and I've seen every iteration of this botting discussion. Every time we try to find a "middle ground," we end up exactly where we are now: with more sophisticated bots and fewer actual players.

Yes, PvP bots are a problem, but they're just a symptom of a larger issue. We've created an environment where the default response to any challenge is "how can I automate this?" rather than "how can I overcome this?"

You're asking about detecting self-defense vs. griefing, but we need to step back and ask ourselves: why are we trying to find technical solutions to what's fundamentally a community problem? The real issue isn't the bots themselves - it's that we've normalized not actually playing the game.

Look, I get it. You're in a tough position. You've got people threatening to leave if botting is banned, and others threatening to leave if it isn't. But from someone who's literally spent decades helping build this community - sometimes you need to cut out the cancer to save the patient.

Here's what I think needs to happen:
1. Clear, firm rules. No more gray areas about what's "acceptable" automation
2. Actual consequences for breaking these rules
3. Focus on making the game engaging for people who want to PLAY it
4. Complete overhaul of how spawns and progression work to discourage AFKing

Will we lose some "players" if we do this? Yes. But they're not really playing anyway. They're just running programs.

I still believe in this game, James. I wouldn't be writing this if I didn't. But at some point, we need to decide if we want to be a game or a bot hosting service. Because right now, we're failing at being either.

Last edited by Mister Rob (October 23rd, 2024 4:56 AM)

I wasn’t planning to respond further, but I feel the need to clear up a misconception. My bot costs less than a McDonald’s family meal, which is insignificant compared to the countless hours I’ve invested in its development. I receive small donations from users who benefit from my work, but in total, I’ve made less than $200 over the past three months—while others charge $200+ for a single-use script. I'm told you yourself charge $300 for your own bots you've made. To be clear, I don’t do this for the money. The donations are simply a token of appreciation, not a financial goal. Turning my bot off would have no financial impact on me whatsoever.

If I were after money, I could easily take on a contracting job and make 10 times the amount with half the effort. But for me, it’s about the joy of developing something new, pushing boundaries, and improving performance purely for my own satisfaction. If others benefit from it, that’s just a bonus.

I agree with most of what you’ve said, but I wanted to clear this up now. Some of your posts make it seem like I’m raking in thousands from the game, which is far from the truth.

Last edited by bullethead123 (October 23rd, 2024 5:12 AM)

Bullet, I wasn't trying to paint you as some major profiteer - I apologize if it came across that way. The money aspect was just an example of how backwards this whole situation has become, where we're more focused on justifying and monetizing automation than actually playing the game.

Whether it's $200 or $2000 isn't really the point. The fact that we're even having a discussion about bot pricing and comparing different automation tools shows how far we've strayed from what this game should be about.

I get the technical challenge aspect - truly, I do. But pushing boundaries and improving performance should be about making the game better for everyone, not just making more efficient ways to not play it.

And look, let me be completely transparent here - yes, I've provided services and macros too. But there's a world of difference between basic capture/playback macros for some skills and cosmetics like reputation or helping someone through BSE progression, and full automation tools that run characters 24/7. What I've done are simple tools that still require actual player involvement - no packet injection, no complex automation, just basic quality-of-life stuff.

There's nothing particularly revolutionary about what any of us are doing here. These aren't groundbreaking technological achievements - they're just increasingly sophisticated ways to avoid playing the game. And that's the real issue. It's not about who's making what money or who's using what technology - it's about how we've collectively decided that automating gameplay is more important than actually playing the game.

You know what? You actually make a valid point about the history here. Yes, camping has always been a thing. Yes, AFKing existed before. Yes, the drop rates were always brutal, and yes, some GMs absolutely fucked the economy with spawned items. I'm not going to pretend any of that isn't true - I was there, I saw it all happen.

But here's where you're missing the point: Just because something was always broken doesn't mean we should break it even more. There's a massive difference between the old days of camping a spot at 0.003% drop rate or basic AFKing, and today's automated armies running 24/7 with guaranteed drops and levels.

You say you're "just adapting to the environment" - but you're actively making that environment worse. It's like seeing a house on fire and deciding to pour gasoline on it because "well, it was already burning." The fact that others did sketchy stuff in the past doesn't justify making the present even worse.

And let's be real about the "nothing to do" argument. There's nothing to do BECAUSE of the current bot situation. When every viable spawn has automated characters camping it 24/7, when the economy is completely warped by bot-farmed items, when PvP has devolved into automated scripts - of course there's nothing meaningful left to do manually.

You're using the symptoms to justify the disease. Yes, the game has problems that need fixing. Yes, there's a trust issue because of past GM actions. But using that as an excuse to make everything exponentially worse with automation isn't the answer - it's just making sure nobody can enjoy the game without joining the bot arms race.

Last edited by Mister Rob (October 23rd, 2024 5:52 AM)

Funny how robs going for justice and yet is the destroyer of all hammers of justice.

saying you didnt wanna make it personal when saying im capping every spawn is kinda personal but like i said , i dont see the issue since everyone that easked me to use the spawn got yes for answere, same goes for every other spawn ive used noone have dmed me saying they wanna lvl in a spot and i tell them to fuck off , helping players? yea sure ive done same forever doesnt justify the selling bots / i never sold or contributed to the issue at hand ,  but yes acknowledgin being part of the issue then acting like your against it makes same sense to me as me saying idc if ppl bot or not ,

like u say lets get to the topic of fixin the mess , we stop all programs today, what have you fixed? will you see more ppl doing pit to get 0? or sewers to get 0? or raid to get 0? or camp X mob to get item ppl are giving out for free? what have you fixed with stopping it thats the part i dont understand, you talk about fixin an issue that has no simple fix,  my question is

i have every item in the game minus 2-3 , what is fixed if we remove afking today ?
will the new players catch up to me? no not if u give them 10 years even then i doubt they are there.
will the items/economy go back to normal? no it wont whats normal anyway? game is 20 years old there is 100+ mill of gold in the game but 0 goldsinks no matter how many time we explained this ,

will you see players stop botting but lvl manually? no you wont these are the same players that are lvl 300 after 1000 years it wont fix anything

yes i make valid point of camping is pointless since noone in their right mind will camp a 0.003 item manually its not that deep, the game has 30 players online and 7 actual humans for a reason , THERE IS NO CONTENT for the good players

for the death of me there is nothing to gain from pit, sewers, raid and so on , there is no war games / pvp rewards there is no new spawns to "manual" its the same tigers spawns we been hitting for ages , u say yea remove bots but what have u fixed? de nada. 

with that being said im up for eiether way this goes i just love the logic here

You know what? Let's step away from the back-and-forth about who did what. You're raising some valid points about the core game issues that need addressing.

You're right - just stopping automation won't magically fix the reward structure, the drop rates, or the economy. These are deep-rooted issues that need proper solutions. When James brought up PvP bots, he was looking at one symptom of a much bigger problem.

This is exactly the kind of discussion we need to be having. You're touching on the core problems that made automation feel necessary in the first place. The game has evolved into this massive gap between established and new players, with no real way to bridge it legitimately.

When you say there's 100+ million gold with no gold sinks, that's a perfect example of how the economy has spiraled out of control. New players can't meaningfully participate in an economy where basic items cost more gold than they could make in months of legitimate play. And yes, you're right - this won't magically fix itself just by removing bots.

Looking at both the botting issue James raised and the underlying problems you're pointing out, here's what needs addressing:

Immediate Bot-Related Changes:
1. Clear rules on what automation is allowed
- Basic QoL macros vs full automation
- PvP absolutely needs to be manual
- Clear consequences for violations

2. Anti-Bot Mechanics
- Dynamic events that require actual player input
- Systems that reward active play over AFK farming

Long-Term Game Improvements:
3. Meaningful rewards for manual play
- Events that actually provide worthwhile rewards
- Updated drop rates that respect players' time
- Rewards that scale with effort, not just RNG

4. Proper gold sinks (which you've been pointing out for ages)
- Item enhancement/upgrade systems
- Property/housing mechanics
- Consumables that actually matter for high-level play

5. Better progression paths for new players
- Revamped early game experience
- Clear goals and achievements
- Ways to earn starter gear without relying on handouts

6. Some form of catch-up mechanic that doesn't involve automation
- Enhanced XP rates for manual play
- Milestone rewards for legitimate progression
- Seasonal events that help newer players advance

The point isn't just to stop botting - it's to make the game worth playing manually again. When you say new players won't catch up in 10 years, that's a game design problem that needs fixing. But we also can't ignore that current automation practices are making it even harder for legitimate players to enjoy the game.

This needs to be a two-pronged approach: address the immediate automation issues while also fixing the underlying problems that made people turn to bots in the first place.

Last edited by Mister Rob (October 23rd, 2024 6:47 AM)